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Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.
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Sal Offline

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Post: #61
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

The Steve Wrote:They don't have to...they're a private company now so the need for publishing accounts is not there. Legally anyway.

Of course they have to file accounts.
15th April 2010 02:18 PM
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Lucian Offline

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Post: #62
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Austin A cracking little player but same time he musn't rate Ranger if we are looking else where for strikers...
15th April 2010 02:31 PM
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VanCanToonFan Offline

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Post: #63
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

I'm normally a lurker on this forum, but I felt I needed to weigh in on this topic. There is a lot of speculation in this conversation, without a lot of facts to back it up. Some spotty attempts at math, yes, but again without the correct numbers to start with.

First, my biases:
I'm absolutely no Ashley supporter. There is no denying that he has made massive mistakes since taking over the club, but I also feel that we have been fortunate that he's rich enough to keep the team from being flushed all the way down the crapper. Some seem Ashley as some kind of antichrist, but I don't see any malice in his actions. To me, he is a well-intentioned buffoon, a nouveau-riche cretin who decided to buy a football team on a whim, with disastrous results due to his complete lack of experience and know-how on his part, and on the part of those he chose to surround himself with (e.g Dennis Wise). That said, he seems to have learned something from his mistakes, and needs to be given credit for (a) wiping out the majority of the club's debt load by giving the team an interest-free loan, and (b) doing enough financially to get the team promoted back to the Premiership at the first time of asking.

Now the numbers, starting with 2008-09 revenues (source: Deloitte Football Money League report):
- Matchday £29.0 million (avg attendance 49,000)
- Broadcasting £37.6m
- Commercial £19.4m
- TOTAL: £86.0 million

2008-09 wage bill estimated at 70% of turnover, or £60 million (source: http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/defaul...rticle=106). Remember that the wage bill for players is not a club's only cost. There is backroom staff, stadium upkeep, matchday security, debt service, etc. With the wage bill at 70%, the club still didn't turn a profit.

Now for 2009-10, the numbers are unpublished, but we can make some assumptions:

- Matchday - Should be about the same as previous year. Average attendance is down 12%, but we play three more home matches (26 v 23).
- Broadcasting - this is where the club really takes a hit. NUFC's 2008-09 revenues were the 3rd highest in the Premier League, based on 20 live televised matches. The Football League's TV deals with BBC and Sky is literally not in the same league as the Prem. The FL's current deal is £88m per season for live league and playoff matches across all 3 divisons as well as live league cup games and highlights packages. My best guess is about £10m goes to NUFC this season.
- Commercial - no figures to go on, but you have to assume their sponsors had riders in their contracts regarding relegation, and the team will certainly have sold fewer pieces of merchandise as a result, so let's put the number at about £12 million.
- Total estimated turnover: £51 million

The wage bill this year has been estimated at £40 million, or 78% of revenues (vs. 70% in 08-09), so I can't honestly see how the club cold possibly have broken even this year.
15th April 2010 05:19 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #64
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Sal Wrote:Of course they have to file accounts.

Not publically.

They file them, yes, but what is on them, remains confidential, unless they wish to share it.
15th April 2010 05:25 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #65
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

I don't think it would be too hard to believe that Ashley was injecting cash into the club, but certainly not the amounts that were claimed...what was it, £150,000 per week?!! No chance, maybe he's put some in, but definitely not that much.
15th April 2010 05:29 PM
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Sal Offline

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Post: #66
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

richyNUFC Wrote:Not publically.

They file them, yes, but what is on them, remains confidential, unless they wish to share it.

Utter bollocks mate.

Go onto Companies House website, pay a quid and you can download any set of limited company accounts.
15th April 2010 05:48 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #67
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Sal Wrote:Utter bollocks mate.

Go onto Companies House website, pay a quid and you can download any set of limited company accounts.

I thought that was only public limited companies? Confused
15th April 2010 05:49 PM
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Sal Offline

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Post: #68
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Nay, there are differing filing rules between ltd's and plc's - But all corporations have to file accounts in the public domain.
15th April 2010 05:51 PM
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Venegoor Offline

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Post: #69
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

VanCanToonFan Wrote:I'm normally a lurker on this forum, but I felt I needed to weigh in on this topic. There is a lot of speculation in this conversation, without a lot of facts to back it up. Some spotty attempts at math, yes, but again without the correct numbers to start with.

First, my biases:
I'm absolutely no Ashley supporter. There is no denying that he has made massive mistakes since taking over the club, but I also feel that we have been fortunate that he's rich enough to keep the team from being flushed all the way down the crapper. Some seem Ashley as some kind of antichrist, but I don't see any malice in his actions. To me, he is a well-intentioned buffoon, a nouveau-riche cretin who decided to buy a football team on a whim, with disastrous results due to his complete lack of experience and know-how on his part, and on the part of those he chose to surround himself with (e.g Dennis Wise). That said, he seems to have learned something from his mistakes, and needs to be given credit for (a) wiping out the majority of the club's debt load by giving the team an interest-free loan, and (b) doing enough financially to get the team promoted back to the Premiership at the first time of asking.

Now the numbers, starting with 2008-09 revenues (source: Deloitte Football Money League report):
- Matchday £29.0 million (avg attendance 49,000)
- Broadcasting £37.6m
- Commercial £19.4m
- TOTAL: £86.0 million

2008-09 wage bill estimated at 70% of turnover, or £60 million (source: http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/defaul...rticle=106). Remember that the wage bill for players is not a club's only cost. There is backroom staff, stadium upkeep, matchday security, debt service, etc. With the wage bill at 70%, the club still didn't turn a profit.

Now for 2009-10, the numbers are unpublished, but we can make some assumptions:

- Matchday - Should be about the same as previous year. Average attendance is down 12%, but we play three more home matches (26 v 23).
- Broadcasting - this is where the club really takes a hit. NUFC's 2008-09 revenues were the 3rd highest in the Premier League, based on 20 live televised matches. The Football League's TV deals with BBC and Sky is literally not in the same league as the Prem. The FL's current deal is £88m per season for live league and playoff matches across all 3 divisons as well as live league cup games and highlights packages. My best guess is about £10m goes to NUFC this season.
- Commercial - no figures to go on, but you have to assume their sponsors had riders in their contracts regarding relegation, and the team will certainly have sold fewer pieces of merchandise as a result, so let's put the number at about £12 million.
- Total estimated turnover: £51 million

The wage bill this year has been estimated at £40 million, or 78% of revenues (vs. 70% in 08-09), so I can't honestly see how the club cold possibly have broken even this year.

We'll have no well researched posts on this board my lad, wild conjecture and rabid rantings will do nicely thank you Smile
15th April 2010 05:51 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #70
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Sal Wrote:Nay, there are differing filing rules between ltd's and plc's - But all corporations have to file accounts in the public domain.

hehe, I wouldn't normally care about not knowing that, but I'm a bloody accountant!! Big Grin

I knew they had to file them, obviously, just didn't know anybody could get the info.
15th April 2010 05:52 PM
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Sal Offline

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Post: #71
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

richyNUFC Wrote:hehe, I wouldn't normally care about not knowing that, but I'm a bloody accountant!! Big Grin

I knew they had to file them, obviously, just didn't know anybody could get the info.

I didnt know you were in the accountancy game mate?!?!

I guess we have 2 number bods on board Wink
15th April 2010 05:54 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #72
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Sal Wrote:I didnt know you were in the accountancy game mate?!?!

I guess we have 2 number bods on board Wink

Aye, started an apprenticeship as soon as I left school, been working three years and passed me AAT exams last year, but clearly, I'm not far enough into it to know about company filing rules. Big Grin
15th April 2010 05:56 PM
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Sal Offline

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Post: #73
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

For anyone who gives a toss, I just downloaded the 2008 accounts.

Best not just post them on here, dunno if you can get into bother for that ????

Just PM me if you want them sending.

So you working in industry Rich, or practice??
15th April 2010 05:59 PM
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Silent Bob Offline

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Post: #74
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Did mensa member vancantoonfan take the money made from player sales, and money saved after making lots of club employees redundant into account. ?

So that £51million guess sure looks a bit low.
(This post was last modified: 15th April 2010 06:03 PM by Silent Bob.)
15th April 2010 05:59 PM
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Venegoor Offline

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Post: #75
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

richyNUFC Wrote:Aye, started an apprenticeship as soon as I left school, been working three years and passed me AAT exams last year, but clearly, I'm not far enough into it to know about company filing rules. Big Grin

PM Viana, he's doing the exams for that game as well, that'll make 5............er................7 numbers bods on the board :o
15th April 2010 06:00 PM
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Silent Bob Offline

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Post: #76
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

what the hell is going on with my typing

It just posted my folder locations and stuff... hmm i was cleaning my keyboard earlier so maybe i should have turned of the PC first.
15th April 2010 06:00 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #77
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Sal Wrote:For anyone who gives a toss, I just downloaded the 2008 accounts.

Best not just post them on here, dunno if you can get into bother for that ????

Just PM me if you want them sending.

So you working in industry Rich, or practice??

Practice. Small business, only 5 of us there. Great laugh in the office, enjoying it very much. Being a small business, we get a lot of free time, that's why I get to spend so much time on here. Wink

Silent Bob Wrote:"

???

Venegoor Wrote:PM Viana, he's doing the exams for that game as well, that'll make 5............er................7 numbers bods on the board :o

Big Grin

Silent Bob Wrote:what the hell is going on with my typing

I think it's fucked mate.
15th April 2010 06:02 PM
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Silent Bob Offline

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Post: #78
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

I think its stopped now mate.
15th April 2010 06:03 PM
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Venegoor Offline

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Post: #79
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Silent Bob Wrote:what the hell is going on with my typing

It just posted my folder locations and stuff... hmm i was cleaning my keyboard earlier so maybe i should have turned of the PC first.


I thought you where just typing with boxing gloves on.
15th April 2010 06:06 PM
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richyNUFC Offline

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Post: #80
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Silent Bob Wrote:I think its stopped now mate.

Aye, it seems so. Big Grin
15th April 2010 06:16 PM
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VanCanToonFan Offline

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Post: #81
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Silent Bob Wrote:Did mensa member vancantoonfan take the money made from player sales, and money saved after making lots of club employees redundant into account. ?

So that £51million guess sure looks a bit low.
The bulk of that money likely went into repayment of debt brought on by the acquisition of players in years past. Can hardly call that profit. What do you think Ashley's £100 million loan to the club was for? Losses taken on non-profitable pie sales?
15th April 2010 06:22 PM
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rotti Offline

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Post: #82
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

And who's fault was it him being in so much debt his own for not checking the books properly. He tried to be sly and do it behind fatties back. The only winner in all this is The Halls/FS who have made a killing from the sale of the club.
15th April 2010 07:26 PM
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The_Flaming_Lip Offline

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Post: #83
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

VanCanToonFan Wrote:I'm normally a lurker on this forum, but I felt I needed to weigh in on this topic. There is a lot of speculation in this conversation, without a lot of facts to back it up. Some spotty attempts at math, yes, but again without the correct numbers to start with.

First, my biases:
I'm absolutely no Ashley supporter. There is no denying that he has made massive mistakes since taking over the club, but I also feel that we have been fortunate that he's rich enough to keep the team from being flushed all the way down the crapper. Some seem Ashley as some kind of antichrist, but I don't see any malice in his actions. To me, he is a well-intentioned buffoon, a nouveau-riche cretin who decided to buy a football team on a whim, with disastrous results due to his complete lack of experience and know-how on his part, and on the part of those he chose to surround himself with (e.g Dennis Wise). That said, he seems to have learned something from his mistakes, and needs to be given credit for (a) wiping out the majority of the club's debt load by giving the team an interest-free loan, and (b) doing enough financially to get the team promoted back to the Premiership at the first time of asking.

Now the numbers, starting with 2008-09 revenues (source: Deloitte Football Money League report):
- Matchday £29.0 million (avg attendance 49,000)
- Broadcasting £37.6m
- Commercial £19.4m
- TOTAL: £86.0 million

2008-09 wage bill estimated at 70% of turnover, or £60 million (source: http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/defaul...rticle=106). Remember that the wage bill for players is not a club's only cost. There is backroom staff, stadium upkeep, matchday security, debt service, etc. With the wage bill at 70%, the club still didn't turn a profit.

Now for 2009-10, the numbers are unpublished, but we can make some assumptions:

- Matchday - Should be about the same as previous year. Average attendance is down 12%, but we play three more home matches (26 v 23).
- Broadcasting - this is where the club really takes a hit. NUFC's 2008-09 revenues were the 3rd highest in the Premier League, based on 20 live televised matches. The Football League's TV deals with BBC and Sky is literally not in the same league as the Prem. The FL's current deal is £88m per season for live league and playoff matches across all 3 divisons as well as live league cup games and highlights packages. My best guess is about £10m goes to NUFC this season.
- Commercial - no figures to go on, but you have to assume their sponsors had riders in their contracts regarding relegation, and the team will certainly have sold fewer pieces of merchandise as a result, so let's put the number at about £12 million.
- Total estimated turnover: £51 million

The wage bill this year has been estimated at £40 million, or 78% of revenues (vs. 70% in 08-09), so I can't honestly see how the club cold possibly have broken even this year.

Careful VanCan, you'll make the board more logical and factual if you're not careful Big Grin

Well worked out mate. I'm no great Ashley sympathiser as you clearly aren't, but we need a level of honesty in these debates otherwise we all just end up slagging the fat man off without really getting into the ins and outs of the situation the club is in.

Lurk no longer!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYt6YUcUovg&feature=related[/ame]
(This post was last modified: 15th April 2010 08:17 PM by The_Flaming_Lip.)
15th April 2010 08:12 PM
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VanCanToonFan Offline

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Post: #84
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

The_Flaming_Lip Wrote:Careful VanCan, you'll make the board more logical and factual if you're not careful Big Grin

Well worked out mate. I'm no great Ashley sympathiser as you clearly aren't, but we need a level of honesty in these debates otherwise we all just end up slagging the fat man off without really getting into the ins and outs of the situation the club is in.

Lurk no longer!

Thanks for the warm welcome! Smile

It just pains me to read crap like, "Look at how full the stadium is! That fat liar is raking it in hand over fist!" without really looking at the full scope of the business. Match ticket sales don't even account for half of the revenue a typical Premier League team takes in, and I think a lot of fans don't appreciate how much relegation hits the club in other areas.

Liverpool is now in a similar situation, assuming they finish outside the top 4. Missing the Champions League is a sort of relegation in itself, only they have a TON more debt than us, and I'm pretty certain we won't see them back in the so-called Big Four for a while.
15th April 2010 09:20 PM
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The_Flaming_Lip Offline

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Post: #85
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

VanCanToonFan Wrote:Thanks for the warm welcome! Smile

It just pains me to read crap like, "Look at how full the stadium is! That fat liar is raking it in hand over fist!" without really looking at the full scope of the business. Match ticket sales don't even account for half of the revenue a typical Premier League team takes in, and I think a lot of fans don't appreciate how much relegation hits the club in other areas.

Liverpool is now in a similar situation, assuming they finish outside the top 4. Missing the Champions League is a sort of relegation in itself, only they have a TON more debt than us, and I'm pretty certain we won't see them back in the so-called Big Four for a while.

Liverpool finishing outside the top 4 and hopefully entering financial meltdown as a result, could potentially be one of the best things to happen to English football for years.

If it forces the FA and Prem to protect one of their precious "big 4" by redistributing the wealth lower down the Prem it can only benefit NUFC and others, thus making the whole league more competitive.
15th April 2010 09:55 PM
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Silent Bob Offline

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Post: #86
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

VanCanToonFan Wrote:The bulk of that money likely went into repayment of debt brought on by the acquisition of players in years past. Can hardly call that profit. What do you think Ashley's £100 million loan to the club was for? Losses taken on non-profitable pie sales?

Ok so if the bulk of that player sale money was used for the repayment of debt, then if it is actually true, Ashley injected money into the club, then all he's actually done is stick the transfer money he used to repay debt, back into the club.. yes?
15th April 2010 11:29 PM
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ColoradoMagpie Offline

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Post: #87
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

I hope this article is wrong. I think we need 20-25 million to not yo-yo. Lee Ryder had an article the other day comparing, over the years, how much the 3 new PL teams spent the summer before joining the PL and the watermark was 20 million. Those who spent less were relegated, those who spent 20+ stayed up. Quite a startling statistic and hard to ignore if you are an owner.
16th April 2010 12:20 AM
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VanCanToonFan Offline

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Post: #88
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Silent Bob Wrote:Ok so if the bulk of that player sale money was used for the repayment of debt, then if it is actually true, Ashley injected money into the club, then all he's actually done is stick the transfer money he used to repay debt, back into the club.. yes?
If you run retail store, you don't count the sale price of your products as "profit". You need to subtract your costs.

I did number crunching on our transfers from Summer 2009 and January 2010:

Martins, originally signed for £10m, sold for £9m = loss of £1m
Duff, in for £5m, out for £4m = loss of £1m
Beye, in for £2m, out for £2.5m = profit of £500K
Bassong, in for £500K, out for £8m = profit of £7.5m
Owen, in for £16m, out for £0 = loss of £16m
Simpson, in for £750K
Williamson, in for £1m
Routledge, in for £1m
Best, in for "minimal amount" (assume £250K)

Total cost of transfers in = £36.5m
Total revenues from transfers out = £23.5m
Net transfers = £-13m

Where is this profit you speak of?
16th April 2010 12:42 AM
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Silent Bob Offline

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Post: #89
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

If you read back through my posts, you will see i never actually mentioned us making a profit.

All i said was the club generated money by selling on the players.

Also Martins, Duff, Owen, Milner and Given we're bought before Mike Ashley took over the club, so most of the transfer fee's we're payed up.


finally the F.A payed us money for Owen.
16th April 2010 12:58 AM
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VanCanToonFan Offline

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Post: #90
Chris Hughton to be handed a £15m transfer kitty after budget talks with Newcastle.

Silent Bob Wrote:If you read back through my posts, you will see i never actually mentioned us making a profit.

All i said was the club generated money by selling on the players.

Also Martins, Duff, Owen, Milner and Given we're bought before Mike Ashley took over the club, so most of the transfer fee's we're payed up.


finally the F.A payed us money for Owen.
Maybe you didn't call it profit, but you can't count it as operating revenue either. That money was already spent on bringing in those players in the first place.

Fair point on Owen, but transfer fees weren't paid up. When Ashley purchased the club, he also took on those debts (to banks presumably), and paid them off by giving the club an interest free loan. That money is still owing back to him at some point.
16th April 2010 02:39 AM
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